Plantoil/diesel conversion basics
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danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #1 
From another ethics discussion:
Quote:
In my opinion there is a minimum standard for professional ethics and it boils down to living up to your professional responsibilities.

What are vendors professional responsibilities?
I am sure the list can be much longer..but here is what I consider a minimum:

1.Never misinform a customer or potential customer.

2.Honor your agreements whether with a customer or a competitor.

3.Conduct yourself in a professional manner and extend as much courtesy as possible at all times.

4.Give back at least as much to the community (you depend upon for a customer base) as you take.

Even with such a short list of simple "rules" it is probably not possible for someone to follow them perfectly and without fail. Humans simply are not that perfect.

So don't expect any vendor to live up to them perfectly. I know I can't. What I DO expect is that an ethical vendor will not chronically break them or ignore them simply for the sake of profit.

And this is the easiest way to determine if any vendor is likely to act in an ethical manner with YOU.
Ask yourself these questions:

How often does the vendor appear to act in the general interest as much as they act in their own interest?

How often does the vendor appear to act in an unprofessional manner toward their peers?

How often does the vendor make claims about their product to prospective customers that is clearly not true ?

How often does the vendor appear to not honor/live up to  agreements?


 
How would YOU use your "rules"  to choose which vendor YOU would buy a kit from?


Good question.
But this process may not need to involve determining vendor ethics.
Here's what I would do if I needed a conversion kit.
1) I would gather together all of the vendors names on a list.
2) Then I would cross out all of them that don't offer a kit for my vehicle.
3) Then I would take the remaining ones and list the least expensive kits at the top and most expensive at the bottom.
4) Then I would use the comparative charts for kits HERE to determine if all the needed parts to convert my vehicle are included in each of the kits and if they are not in some add on what I estimate they will cost...along with any shipping or "go get it" time may be needed to get those missing parts.
5) Then I would add in those costs so I am comparing "apples to apples" and  change the order if any of the adjusted costs made "less expensive" kits  more expensive.
6)  It is at this point I would begin to look for complaints from former customers about customer service on the forums. Perhaps even post a "Please contact me privately if you have had a bad experience with any of these vendors" (posting the names of any of the vendors which remain on your list). "I am trying to choose a kit with good customer service". If you get a large number of individuals that complain about customer service from one vendor check them to make sure that they don't come from "sock puppets" of one of the other vendors (yes..that is not uncommon)...and then choose the vendor(s) which are either complaint free or have the lowest number of complaints compared to their size. I would also call them during business hours to see if they answer their phone(s). If they don't it may indicate that getting help during installation will be a problem. If they don't answer try leaving a message saying which kit you are interested in and that you have a few questions you need answered to help decide if you will buy their kit or a competitors....and see how long it takes to "get back to you". If they take a long time to return you call BEFORE you buy...it is not a good sign that they will return your calls promptly after they receive your payment for a kit.

Here is where the rules above might come into play..
7) If you decision is now still between several vendors choose the one which has not publicly displayed poor ethics. I believe it display better ethical values to not post at all than to publicly post information that clearly shows a poor grasp of high ethical standards...or an acceptance of low ones.

 
Although low ethical standards of vendors hurt both the VO fuel conversion community as a whole...and its' members individually there is really not much that they can do to force vendors to hold themselves to a higher standard. As with any profession or industry it must establish standards and a means of enforcing those standards on its own members...unless the Govt is willing to do so. And in this case that is not an option anytime in the foreseeable future.





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Dana danalinscott@yahoo.com
justdave

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Reply with quote  #2 
Aren't you breaking your own rules when you misinform potential customers constantly with posts on the vegoil forums?  Don't YOU constantly try to scare away other vendors customers with those posts?

Isn't doing something while telling others that THEY should not hypocritical? Isn't this a case of do what I say..not what I do?



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justdave
John_Galt

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Reply with quote  #3 
Unfounded personal accusations are meaningless trolling.

What specific misinformation is being referenced?

justdave

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Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #4 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Galt
Unfounded personal accusations are meaningless trolling.

What specific misinformation is being referenced?


Glad you asked!

1.Dana claims he does not sell line heaters.
But it is widely known fact that he does.

2.Dana claims he converts "fleets" of trucks but again..it is widely known that he has never converted a single fleet of trucks.

3.Dana claims he has been converting diesels for over 20 years...yet other vendors have proved he has only been posting on the subject for about 6 years.

4.Dana claims he is an expert in all subjects having to do with VO fuel..yet he didn't even know that copper accellerates polymerization and so should not be used in conversions.

5.Dana tried to convince Sunwizard on the infopop forum  that centrifuges could not be used to filter and dewater wvo. And when Sun stood up to him he tried to smear him as not knowing anything about centrifuges.

6.Dana has tried to smear every other vendor by accusing them of not being ethcial..yet he himself is the most unethical of all.

Specific enough?

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justdave
John_Galt

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Posts: 16
Reply with quote  #5 
Good example of unfounded hearsay.

Links to back up accusations would be specific.

danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #6 

Quote:
Unfounded personal accusations are meaningless trolling.

What specific misinformation is being referenced?


I agree...
I am happy to respond to each of these if you care to present specific cases rather than accuse me using generalizations. Simply using the term "well known fact" does not elevate it from an unfounded second hand accusation to a true FACT.

Here's the difference:

Accusation
Quote:
the act of accusing also a charge of wrongdoing


Fact:
Quote:
the quality of being actual : actuality also a piece of information presented as having objective reality.

The key word here is OBJECTIVE (To be objective is to adhere strictly to truth- conducive methods in one's thinking, particularly, to take into account all available information, and to avoid any form of prejudice, bias, or wishful thinking.)

If you had accused anyone else I would have challenged the post myself and placed it in the forums "Moderation resolution area"....where off topic or trollish appearing posts go so they do not sidetrack useful discussions. But as this discussion IS on ethics..and so your post might be considered on topic....AND because I have gotten pretty used to similar (baseless) accusations in other forums if you are willing to provide specific examples of these "FACT" I am more than happy to discuss it with you....IF you can provide specific instances where I have done what you accuse me of.

Maybe I can even help...
My first post on Sunwizards long Dieselcraft thread is near the bottom of the first page HERE

Mys second post is in the middle of page three HERE.

There is a long period where I was away and I begin posting again on the middle of page 8 HERE

Near the top of page 9 WVOalaska says...
Quote:
Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere you did some testing with a centrifuge that uses the same principle as the dieselcraft and it didn't get the water out --which was why you said it wouldn't work.


I do not believe that I EVER said that.

However a few pages earlier SW HAD posted
Quote:
I just ran my first batch of 15 gallons of WVO straight from the restaurant barrel, 100 micron screen on sucker, through the centrifuge with no other filtering and it works great. Easy to clean, no more filters to buy. Runs at 90psi, 1 gpm. I was surprised since Dana had me scared it wouldn't work


The perception that I EVER said a centrifuge will not work is much more due to the statements of others CLAIMING I said something I did not say than anything else.

This is similar to what two vendors and a few Internet trolls have done...and may be why you seem to believe these are "widely known facts".  Something is not a FACT simply because UNFOUNDED ACCUSATIONS have been widely MADE by a few individuals.


In FACT (pun intended)....THAT is a good example of a SMEAR campaign.





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Dana danalinscott@yahoo.com
danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #7 

Dave...I am still happy to respond to your accusations if you wish to make them more specific. You are not on moderation and so can post freely here. And as personally as I MIGHT interpret some of the accusations you made I Have to admit that they are "on topic" in a way that makes them useful for this discussion.

I admit that some of the accusations are specific enough to respond to. I will attempt to do so in the hope that you will provide more specific info on those that remain too general to respond to.

Quote:
1.Dana claims he does not sell line heaters.
But it is widely known fact that he does.
 


This is fairly specific.
I do not sell Injector Line Heaters...but I DO support the efforts of a young man (freshman in an Engineering school) who developed and manufactures them. He is but one of several young individuals with a strong interest in VO conversion technology who I provide free help to in developing their ideas.  It is my hope that not only will the profit generated from sales pay for their college expenses but also stimulate their (engineering) classmates to consider a career in this relatively new industry.

When he began selling his product I was the ONLY customer he had...but I was a substantial one. He had a very well designed product and I believed it was a very good retrofit to all of the VO conversions I was responsible for. This proved to be true and so I began using them in all of my conversions from that point on..and encouraging others to do so as well. The problem was he could not produce them fast enough...and was not eager to market them on-line.  So for a few months (while I convinced him to ramp up production and provide an on-line "store" for them) I DID sell them at my cost to about a dozen individuals.  I COULD have easily sold them from my website...but wanted him to learn the process of direct sales so he could serve as an example to any of his peers that might have a similar interest in developing state of the art VO conversion components.


The "well known fact" that I "covertly" sell them is the result of two vendors who were simply trying to publicly smear me in any way available to them after I had (at first privately and then publicly) questioned the business ethics of presenting misinformation about each others products. Sine they had no defense for their behavior the both tried to deflect my criticism by implying I was unethical myself (and so unworthy of criticizing them) through a series of accusations for which they had absolutely no proof or basis. In order to do so they claimed I had made public comments I had not...and ignored requests for any actual proof of their accusations. In the end though they apparently managed to convince a few individuals (such as yourself) that this accusation was a "fact". And those few repeated the accusation..and so on.

This is how misinformation on the Internet becomes "a widely known fact".  Also known as a "Factoid"
Quote:
an invented fact believed to be true because of its appearance in print


Quote:
2.Dana claims he converts "fleets" of trucks but again..it is widely known that he has never converted a single fleet of trucks.


This is another very good example of a "Factoid" ...and it was proposed by the same two vendors for the very same reason as the one above. One of them ALSO has converted a small truck fleet ...and knows full well why that it is not ethical to reveal a fleets clients name or location without their permission.

Quote:
3.Dana claims he has been converting diesels for over 20 years...yet other vendors have proved he has only been posting on the subject for about 6 years.[/QUOTE]

The oldest Internet forum on VO conversion is only about 7 years old.  Until it was created those interested in VO conversion had to post on forums primarily devoted to bio-diesel. And the oldest bio-diesel forums only existed for a year or two prior to that.

When I began posting I was interested in bio-diesel AND VO conversion. But bio-diesel seemed to be the solution to most of the problems I had run into up to that point trying to convert diesel engines to WVO in N. MN. 

My first attempt to run a diesel on WVO was somewhere around 1986-1988 (if my memory serves correct)...and it resulted in a ruined engine. My next attempt was about a year later...and resulted in a ruined engine. The only information I had to go on at that time was a Mother Earth News article and some second hand info from relatives that had lived in China.  After two failures I gave up for a few years. I was very poor and simply could not justify wasting money on failures like that with three children to provide for.  Eventually however I tried again and had a bit more success...before the engine failed. This was encouraging..but I still didn't have the financial resources to trash an engine every year. So it was a few more years before I tried...and failed again. I essentially gave up on VO conversing at that point.

But several years later I had a conversation with a local extension agent who asked if I would be willing to help a group of local farmers research alternative (diesel) fuel options. I met with them and they were very interested in bio-diesel...especially after I shared my experience with WVO fuel and diesel engines. I too was convinced that WVO/SVO was not a good option for their tractor engines since all of the public research (as well as my own) seemed to clearly indicate that it ruined engines fairly quickly.  As a result we concentrated on researching the possibility of making bio-diesel as a co-op. Initially my main contribution was to search using the Internet for info on small scale bio-diesel processing.  In doing this however I ran ac cross more an more information that led me to believe that WVO/SVO might actually BE as viable an alternative fuel...and became part of the half dozen or so individuals using the (bio-diesel) forums to discuss VO conversion technology. I also converted "Bessie", a test mule whose engine was "bench-marked" prior to conversion. Bessie became what I considered my first successful conversion and was what convinced that group of farmers to research VO fuel as earnestly as they were bio-diesel.

At about this time Greasecar and Greasel started selling conversion kits..and Neoteric started offering kits shortly afterward.

A single vendor is responsible for this particular "Factoid".  In this case it appeared to not be in response to my request for a higher ethical standard among vendors but rather simply a strong disagreement with my position in a discussion for which he had no valid counter point. Rather than appear to "lose" the point/counterpoint discussion he chose to attack me with a personal accusation in order to de-rail the discussion entirely. Agreeing to disagree was apparently not a viable option.

4.Dana claims he is an expert in all subjects having to do with VO fuel..yet he didn't even know that copper accellerates polymerization and so should not be used in conversions.[/QUOTE]

Same vendor.
Same tactic.
Different reason.

The vendor and I had discussed polymerization privately several times. He intended to sell an "anti-polymerization product and so commissioned a study with the intent of showing a need for the product. I opined that this was not ethical in private.  When he began the process of "setting up" the bogus need for the product on his public forum I suggested that the study was not completely legitimate..and that he was "cherry picking" the info on the study in an effort to create a market a product from a study that clearly did not prove such a need existed if ALL of the info in the study was presented equally.

As a result the product launch failed. He has displayed a deep and personal hatred of me every since. I cannot say I blame him. I am sure he felt that some personal confidence had been betrayed even though I was careful to not reveal what we had privately discussed.

5.Dana tried to convince Sunwizard on the infopop forum  that centrifuges could not be used to filter and dewater wvo. And when Sun stood up to him he tried to smear him as not knowing anything about centrifuges.
 

I already helped you on this one. You will have to provide more specific info if you want me to respond in a more specific manner.

Quote:
6.Dana has tried to smear every other vendor by accusing them of not being ethcial..yet he himself is the most unethical of all.


Please be more specific. Links to examples might be helpful.
If you define "smear" differently a link to  a definition may also be appropriate.


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Dana danalinscott@yahoo.com
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