Plantoil/diesel conversion basics
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interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #1 
There's a German company called Elsbett that developed fuel injectors to be used with VO. They spray at an angle that prevents the fuel to reach the walls before burning. They don't make them for the Cummins though. 
My question is: What are the best available injectors (to run VOs) for the second gen Cummins?

Elsbett's conversion kits includes also glowplugs that are longer, get and stay hotter.  So the second question's: what would be the best glowplugs for running VOs?

While i'm at it, what would be the best headers for the job?

Thank you
interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #2 
Well, it turns out 12v Cummins got no glow plugs. I know now cause i bought one and i'm in the process of overhauling it

I also have come to think that a header would be an overkill. Porting the head on the exhaust side may be a good idea. It'd support the turbo's effort to provide enough air and get most complete  combustion.

I still would like to hear what injectors do you guys use and with what results. I know nobody likes ignorant newbies but i try real hard to educate myself and could use some support.
danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #3 
VO fuel and performance tuning don't equal long term useful engine life. I sugest leaving the engine as stock as possible if you plan to convert it to VO fuel. Newbies are welcome here and not considered ignorant. Stock injectors are probably the best option if Elsbett does not sell the ones for your Cummins. The glow plugs Elsbett sells are hotter because they sell single tank conversions and VO is harder to ignite when it is cool and you are trying to start a cold engine on it. I assume you are not planning a single tank conversion for your Cummins. 
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interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #4 
If by performance you mean "more power" then i guess you're right. Performance may also mean better efficiency though and as far as i can tell good atomization, the right spray angle and adequate air supply would help with that. 

I plan on a two tank system but still even if i heat the VO to what it should be I imagine some injectors could do a better job than another. "Stock" may mean optimal performance but it also may mean product that can be marketed to the widest possible market at lowest possible cost
danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #5 
If you want to experiment with injector angles I think you will have to have them custom made based on the little information available. You may have more success with simply adjusting the pressure curve. There are so many variables that unless you plan to spend a lot of money on equipment and teardowns you will probably be better off leaving the engine as stock as possible and concentrating (at least initially) on a VO conversion that feeds 220F+ VO to your stock injectors. This will give you a good point to start from. You can then use MPG over a long set course to determine if any modification you make burns VO more efficiently. 

In most cases there is more than enough air present to combust VO fuel. Adding a larger turbo may allow more air to be present in high load conditions (WOT) but won't effect combustion 95% of the time. This is why most performance mods create lots of smoke by adding more fuel than can be cleanly combusted. THAT is what you want to avoid with VO fuel. 

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interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #6 
Can you please elaborate on adjusting the pressure curve. 

By the way, for whatever reason when i emailed Elsbett to find out if they have  conversion kit for Cummins 6bt i got a laconic "we don't have a kit for your application" and when i then asked about the injectors i got no answer at all. So i assumed they don't have them.

I just found out they make them. Their customer service apparently sucks. 

I did manage to get in touch with another German manufacturer - Monark and it seems they have injectors that should work in my engine.
interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #7 
It just occurred to me that i can be deemed totally reckless when i talk about modifying the engine shortly after i figured out it has no glowplugs 

The thing is i bought the engine when it was already taken appart. Somebody gave up on it and it was rusting in a barn. Didn't pay a lot for it and got it with the intention to put it back together and learn all i can about it in the process. So far i'm happy with the progress.

After i'm done with that part i'm going to find something i can put it in and adapt it to run VOs. 

Running VOs was the original idea behind buying the engine in the first place and that's why i try to make it ready for VOs from every angle i can think of.

  I'm not in a hurry and i'm really excited about it.
billyO

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hello, I've decided to chip in my 2 centavos:

I agree with not doing too many modifications (so far about 150K on WVO with 335K on the engine), but in the years that I've been on VO on my 93 dodge, I've often thought of how I'd modify my conversion if only I had the time, space, money and tools to pull the engine, and you're already there. 

I'd figure out a way to attatch the VO filter to the exhaust manifold by fabricating a box that gets attatched to the block, just make sure you have access to change the filter. 

If possible, I'd also try to bend new injector lines to try to take advantage of the heat of the block (never had luck with injector line heaters). 

I've got hydraforce valves (no plastic), and with the engine out, I'd place them to try to take care of engine heat as well.   
good luck and have fun!
billyO
danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
I did manage to get in touch with another German manufacturer - Monark and it seems they have injectors that should work in my engine.

There are quite a few manufactures of stock and modified injectors for your engine. But Elsbett is the only one I can imagine modifies them to narrow the spray pattern. If Monark does have a model modified for VO use please post more information on them.

Quote:
The thing is i bought the engine when it was already taken appart. Somebody gave up on it and it was rusting in a barn. Didn't pay a lot for it and got it with the intention to put it back together and learn all i can about it in the process. So far i'm happy with the progress.

Do you have diesel mechanic experience? 

Quote:
I'd figure out a way to attatch the VO filter to the exhaust manifold by fabricating a box that gets attatched to the block,

Not advisable. A simple coolant jacket will work much better.

Quote:
If possible, I'd also try to bend new injector lines to try to take advantage of the heat of the block

Again..not advisable. I have found that high quality high temp injector line heaters work much better.  


Quote:
(never had luck with injector line heaters).

I didn't at first either. Early line heater designed were very crude and didn't transfer much heat to the Injector lines. The ones I use now are very efficient at raising final injection temp. I get over pre-injection VO temps of over 220F on my Dodge using them. At temps that high I get very clean combustion without having to modify the injectors or change the injection pump fuel pressure curve.

Re:injection pump fuel pressure curve
The injectors are "triggered" by the pressure supplied by the IP. After they are triggered the flow through them is also controlled by the pressure provided by the IP. So by changing that pressure during the injection cycle the amount of fuel being injected at any given part of the injection cycle. In practical terms this is more difficult with a mechanical injector than the newer electronic controlled injectors. This is a major reason that electronic injector control can provide better MPG and emissions profiles than mechanical IPs. 

I have experimented with custom injectors find generally that it is not worth the development costs. If Elsbett says they don't have a kit for your application how did you determine that they can supply injectors for you engine that are modified for VO?

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interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #10 
Gracias billyO, I'll put your 2 centavos in a high yield account. 
Can you explain what you mean by taking care of engine heat?

Thank you danalinscott. I do value your opinions  quite a bit. To answer your questions and concerns:

Actually i misunderstood what Monark's representative told me. So far we managed to figure out  which Bosch number referes to which Cummins number. Right now they are trying to figure out if they can make the injector or the nozzle. The conversation I have is with Jens Muhl (Muhl@monark.de) who is a very nice and easy to talk to person.

I heard very recently at another forum that Elsbett makes the injectors for european trucks and busses equipped with 6bts. I'll try to gather whatever i remember from my high school German, call them and confirm or disprove it.

My diesel mechanic experience so far is kind of limited. I'd say that at this very moment I'm a 3 on a scale from 1 to 10. Although I don't see no reason why i should limit what i could do to what i already have  

I got the P7100. I'm quite sure the people that had the engine before me messed with whatever they could to get "more power" out of it so i will have to figure out how to set it up  to make it VO friendly wether i want it or not. I'm having hard time imagining how i could change the pressure curve without replacing the pump's cam.  But i haven't really spent the time to figure it out yet. I'd be most  grateful if you steer me in the right direction.
interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #11 
I finally heard from Elsbett regarding the injectors. Now they're saying they only sell complete kits. When i asked if they have one for 6bt with Bosh7100 they said it's 2850 euro ex VAT and shipping. 

I got a quick response when i contacted them @ http://www.elsbett.nl. Not elsbett.com who were the ones that told me they had no kits for Cummins and ignored other emails. Apparently something's not right with elsbett.com. 
billyO

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Reply with quote  #12 

sorry about the poor editing, "take care" should be "take advantage"...

danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #13 
From what I can see on the Elsbett websites they DO offer individual components (through dealers) but I do not see injectors for your engine listed among those currently available. That doesn't mean they don't for certain. Websites are often not immediately updated when a new product is created.
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danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
sorry about the poor editing,

You can always use the "edit' option in the  lower right corner of your posts. 

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interzonearts

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Reply with quote  #15 
"Reorganization Elsbett Finished

The reorganization of Elsbett has been completed, there is now a new corporate structure with the same technical support. That means many decades of experience in converting regular diesel engines to be able to run on ppo. Whether this is freshly grained vegetable oil or purified used cooking oil. We are increasingly applying a global focus as Europe is slowing down in its environmental investments, though the efforts in southern Europe have increased.

We will start to emphasize on complete conversion kits rather than individual parts, those will still be available to customers that have had their engines converted."

It's from Elsbett's newsletter. And I also heard it from their representative.  It's their new policy. 



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