Plantoil/diesel conversion basics
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danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #1 
A report of a study on VO and WVO oxidation was recently released on the Frybrid forum. The Beatty Report PFD .

It is controversial for a variety of reasons which will be discussed here.
Please note that this is a technical discussion and the special rules regarding technical discussion will be in force.

The author has been invited to participate and has declined.
This is unfortunate as it is very unusual for any report or study to be submitted to the public without vetting by peers AND for the author to refuse to participate in the vetting process.

Note: Recently the owner of Frybrid (Chris Goodwin) revealed that the Author of the Report (Joe Beatty) produced the report with the intent of using it to market a VO fuel anti-polymerization fuel additive in a cooperative effort with Frybrid.

Quote:
01-25-2008, 05:09 PM
cgoodwin cgoodwin is offline
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"Mr. Beatty developed the product and elected not to sell it because of possible liability arising from inproper handleing" 


This reflects very poorly on the Beatty Reports credibility since any study which appears to be intended to be used to create a market  for a product cannot be considered to be at all un-biased.   And certainly the study appears to be skewed in several ways...but it still raises several apparrently valid points based on standard scientific research protocol.

Unfortunately Mr. Goodwin appears to use SOME of these points as a marketing ploy by mainly ignoreing large parts of the report. This is referred to in serious research groups as "cherry picking" a study to make it appear it reveals facts which it actually does not. Pharmaceutical companies do it all the time...the tobacco industry did it for 40 years..and apparrently NOW at least one VO  conversion kit vendor is using this tactic in an attempt to make his (Frybrid) product APPEAR significantly superior to a competitors (GreaseCar) based on GCs use of fairly large copper heat exchangers in their VO fuel tanks.  Eventually it was shifted to include ANY use of copper or brass in VO fuel systems ...but when the fact that Frybrid conversions use brass fittings the warnings against brass were removed.

The full version of the Beatty report is available from the link to it on the Frybrid website above. I encourage those interested to read it. For those who don't wish to read the entire study a set of FAQs based on its conclusions is HERE.


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njgreenhouse

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Reply with quote  #2 

how can the author of that report rule out the possibility that animal fat in WVO is the main culprit that causes problems in fuel systems?  There are at least 10 other variables, and countless research methodologies, that should be experimented with (or ruled out in an educated manner) before coming to the conclusions that the paper reached.

 

I agree with you Dana, this research paper has not convinced me to change my system much except rely more (as much as possible) on cold filtering. 

danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #3 

Please do not misunderstand my position.

To help clarify that:

Oxidation is one of the factors that must be taken into consideration when engineering a conversion . But it is not the largest or most difficult factor to contend with. This does not mean that it should be ignored IMO..but neither should it produce an intense emotional response when discussed. It is easy to deal with..and compared to other factors much simpler to deal with than say... suspended water.

IMO the Beatty report has some useful information. Calmly discussing it with the author would easily double its practical usefulness to the VO fuel community.



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coachgeo

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Reply with quote  #4 
Mr. Lost on frybrid did point out that a study/research should never be considered valid till the process and results have been duplicated. (synopsis of what he said). Guess thats really something to think about. Think maybe lots of people are jumping on a banwagon without some real detailed thoughts.


I like the idea he presented on how to do a simular study in a more relevant way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lost
do same experement in a vehicle or at least a fake fuel system. Make a small chamber for the oil to flow thru.(PVC pipe?) Chambers has removable top. After the chamber is a sight filter to catch flakes for study. Put metal in question in the chamber; close top and seal. Do your best to make sure metal in chamber is the ONLY metal in the whole thing. Flow heated oil thru the chamber at same average rate a vehicle would. Leak off a bit of the oil at an average rate of a vehicle consuming it as fuel. Replace consumed fuel a few times simular to someone filling up their tank again.


http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48767&postcount=92
danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #5 

Here is what I find the oddest about the report.

 

The author clearly states:

Quote:

It is important to note here that no correlation is suggested

between the times required to initiate rapid oxidation reported in

this study and “real life” operating conditions nor is it felt that any

such relationship can be formulated. These test conditions rapidly

accelerate oxidation by agitation, which greatly increases the

exposure of the oil to oxygen. 

 

But then he goes on to base his conclusions on the same relationship to these conditions which he "feels" can not be formulated.  How can these tow seemingly diametrically opposed statements be reconciled.

 

Only the Author can possibly explain this..and he has chosen to refrain from offering any insight into his logic as exhibited in his report.

 

Puzzling.

 

Mr. Beatty goes on to say:

Quote:

Indeed the “real life” mechanism is believed to be that of a

thin film of oil constantly spashed on tank surfaces followed by a

classic drying reaction.

 

A point I made in a discussion with Mr. Beatty several months before he began this study. One wonders why Mr. Beatty chose to NOT test this since he obviously believes it to be the most likely source of polymerization in REAL LIFE? This may be a rare occurrence in real life VO conversions but is at least 100 times more common than the polymerization process/dangers Mr. Beatty "warns" of in his reports conclusions.

 

In fact my own research and REAL LIFE observations of hundreds of VO conversions has lead me to recommend 4 of the 7 recommendations MR. Beatty has provided.  It is the remaining 3 I had hoped to discuss with the Author privately or in public. Unfortunately Mr. Beatty has declined every time he has been queried on his willingness to participate.

 

 

 

 


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danalinscott

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Reply with quote  #6 

Quote:
Originally Posted by coachgeo
Mr. Lost on frybrid did point out that a study/research should never be considered valid till the process and results have been duplicated. (synopsis of what he said). Guess thats really something to think about. Think maybe lots of people are jumping on a banwagon without some real detailed thoughts.


I like the idea he presented on how to do a simular study in a more relevant way.

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48767&postcount=92

 

I like that idea too George.

Maybe that would be worth discussing and developing HERE.

 

I am relatively certain that Mr. Beattys data can be duplicated. I have found many ways to "push" polymerization in wvo chemically to a point where the VO is quickly too polymerized to use as fuel as Mr. Beatty appears to have done. But when I used the knowledge gained by these experiments I found that in REAL LIFE several of the issues that the Beatty report seems to present as of very high significance (in its "findings") are either not in most REAL LIFE cases or easily countered to a point they are of very low significance.

 

 


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